Wednesday, October 18, 2006

I'm gonna get comments for this but...

I really thought everybody just kind of took this for granted:

"The watchdog said there was an implication, without evidence, that Christians were the main cause of homophobic incidents."

It is politically correct to say that religion has nothing to do with gay-bashing. It is also patently untrue.

"Without evidence" is a bit of a stretch, I think. It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that the only real argument in favour of discrimination against gays is religiously-based. It doesn't take much to go from that, from discrimination, to prejudice, to fear, to anger, to hatred, and then to gay-bashing. I ask, if religion is not ultimately to blame for homophobia, what is?

Not all religion, mind you. But let's just look at this particular case. The ad in question is a bible next to a spatter of blood. Clearly, the pictoral allegation is that the bible and bloodshed are connected somehow. Could this be because Leviticus 18:22, as I'm sure we all know by now, calls for the murder of homosexuals? I don't know about you, but I think that may have something to do with it.


At 10/18/2006 8:44 a.m., Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think. It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that the only real argument in favour of discrimination against gays is religiously-based.

No, it's not obvious. There are people with an agnostic background who oppose homosexual behaviour on the basis of the biological incompatibility and the complimentarity of the sexes.

I'm ready to bet the people least likely to beat up gays are devout Christians.

At 10/18/2006 8:55 a.m., Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know what CC:

I have been known to make stupid remarks once in a while something as stupid as this I don't think so.

At 10/18/2006 9:35 a.m., Blogger OttawaCon said...

Pretty weak.

When I think of all the dumb jock behaviour toward gays, suspected or otherwise, that intimidated peers by suggesting violence, I am hard pressed to think of a single observant Christian. Closest would be Catholic jocks, but they would hardly qualify as religious. In all the incidents I recall (and there were more than a few, being a former dumb jock myself) it was good ol' secular stupidity driving it.

At 10/18/2006 9:49 a.m., Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was a kid, I saw my parents struggle with racism and hating gay people. When they were kids normal people were racist and hated gay people, and it was perfectly acceptable. But, society changed and my parents tried not to have the feelings they had about these things, because they were told that it was wrong.
Religious people may argue that homosexuality is wrong, but I think that there are people who feel that homosexuality is wrong who are not religious.
My parents were like that, but they tried to change. Not all people are like that.

At 10/18/2006 11:00 a.m., Blogger Jay said...

Clear Grit,
I whole heartedly agree with you on this. It's easy for people to say no it doesn't but they haven't been greeted with a god hates fags placard like I have. Not to say that their are others who are agnostic but they don't have a text condemning homosexuals.

Looking at the negative comments you have received thus far I wouldn't lose any sleep. They seem to be the same ones who follow the bigotry outlined in the bible.

OttawaCon speaks for itself, and suzanne is involved in cannibalisation of her own feminist rights (her avatar speaks volumes about her mental development). Not really beacons of intelligence.

I'm sure You will receive tons of hate comments now, but directed at me. And I love it. Gawd damn bigots!!!

At 10/18/2006 11:10 a.m., Blogger OttawaCon said...


My point was rather simpler. I have seen the placards, and there is no doubt that religion plays some role in explaining someone like Phelps of Kansas. But the ad in question ran in Britain, where I am quite sure 'lad culture' is a far larger contributor. To my embarassment, growing up I was a frequent witness (a participant only thorough silence) to enough 'agnostic' homophobia to suggest that religion has little to do with it.

At 10/18/2006 11:30 a.m., Blogger Jay said...

Religion is one key cause. The other is plain ignorance and an inability to feel empathy towards someone you do not understand.

Christianity, as seen with the current pope, is recommending denying communion. It also keeps up with the gay is wrong rhetoric. If you are supposed to listen to these bigots then of course you will be one. Look at evangelicals for gawd's sake. They have been indoctrinated so much they dont have a shred of individual thought left.

Those without faith (atheists) usually become such through not being able to understand someone elses life or improper child rearing where a parent had a negative opinion based on what they were told. You know, how no man wants a gay son and will use negative language to deter them through fear.

When you ask a agnostic (who still has religious beliefs just not a particular one) why they feel this way they say its wrong but can't back it up with much more than the reproduction reasons (lame since str8 couples can be barren). When you ask a religious person they always say its wrong because god said say in this book; blah, blah, blah. No real personal reasons just the bible said it is wrong. Don't think about or you are doubting the holy spirit, the one unforgivable sin.

So yes christianity plays a big part as they tell whole congregations to feel this way whereas agnostics that would be homophobic. I have never heard of any, this is where your argument is weak, as agnostics have religious beliefs. Regardless, they do not have institutions backing or condoning their bigoted views, nor are they seeking to have it legalised so they can continue to berate homosexuals as a religious right.

You may be mixing an agnostic up with a christian who doesn't practise or go to church but has been tainted by religion. An atheist has no beliefs in fictional characters.

At 10/18/2006 11:46 a.m., Blogger Kyle Carruthers said...

I think that organized, politically driven homophobia is largely driven by religious organizations. Ordinary, day to day, run of the mill, moronic homophobia come from all walks of life.

At 10/18/2006 12:00 p.m., Anonymous Loraine Lamontagne said...

I understand your feelings, Grit. Brings to mind the situation faced by the Quebec Catholic clergy when documentary film-makers and other media started to release footage and texts of speeches, etc. made during the debate which preceded women gaining the right to vote in 1940. Some pronouncements by high-ranking members of the clergy were so vile and misogynistic that it felt compelled in 1990, on the fiftieth anniversary of the event, to buy full-page ads in newspapers to apologize formally to Quebec women. Of course not all people opposed to women’s right to vote were religious persons, but the Church could not back away from the evidence. One day, they’ll have to face the consequences of the full responsibility of their views on human sexuality as a whole, including women in the clergy and homosexuality. I would not hold my breath, though….

At 10/18/2006 12:20 p.m., Blogger Jay said...

The hypocrisy of all this is the catholic church is vehemently against homosexuals yet (similar to the Republoican Party) they are wrought with pederastry.

At 10/18/2006 1:18 p.m., Blogger Cherniak_WTF said...

CC, I agree with you that it does seems that certain elements of the Christians that do hate crimes.

I think that the more you try to repress something, it will likely come up in a perverse way. Why do we have some many catholic priests that diddle with young boys?

Why is it that the sexy catholic nun is a fetish symbol? Take away the taboo of something, and a sense of normalcy will return.

I'm disgusted by the thinly veiled hate discourse that the Christian right in this country has not problem repeating.
Suzanne is but on person whose zealot behaviour makes me wonder the sanity and intelligence of those on the right.
I'm ready to bet that those more like to beat up gays and propagate hate material are the devout Christians - because they violently oppose homosexuality.

Jay, ironic that those who are most afraid of certain things are the first ones to practice it....
Before anyone reads too much, Homosexuality is not being a pedophile (although many confuse them)...

At 10/18/2006 2:19 p.m., Blogger Jay said...

It's good you made that distinction because many on the right have very low mental capacities especially when it comes to discerning the difference between 2 grown men and a grown man and a child.

Its a little mental deficiency I call bible block (similar to a lobotomy).

At 10/18/2006 8:04 p.m., Blogger Shan said...

I don't doubt that there are religious factors that came into play in the values of our ancestors, and that those were passed down and eventually bred hatred. Since, those religions never considered it to be acceptable.

However, there are other values that religion opposes like polytheism. Polytheists nowadays do not receive the same maltreatment that homosexuals do (though they may have before). Eventually it became accepted and perhaps the same will happen for homosexuals.

Nevertheless, no one is obligated to accept homosexuals or feel as though it's okay. But, no one should be harassed for any reason.

At 10/18/2006 8:24 p.m., Anonymous Anth said...

Most religions believe that homosexuality is unnatural but most respect those who are gay, some don't but do not go out of there way (or in there way) to bash gay people.

Religious fundamentalism is the problem here. The same people who do the gay bashing are murdering the doctors that perform abortions.

At 10/19/2006 12:36 p.m., Blogger Jay said...

"A Roman Catholic priest said he had an inappropriate two-year relationship with former Rep. Mark Foley in the 1960s that included massaging the boy in the nude, but he did not specifically remember having sex, a newspaper reported Thursday.

The Rev. Anthony Mercieca, 72, described several encounters that he said Foley might perceive as sexually inappropriate, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune reported. They include massaging Foley while the boy was naked, skinny-dipping together at a secluded lake in Lake Worth and being nude in the same room on overnight trips."

So not only does the catholic church molest children, it creates more potential sex offenders. Then it turns around and acts as though nothing happened and condemns sexual relations between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS. If they maybe let preists have families and partners I do believe that cycle could be broken but instead they forge on raping more kids. Talk about being fucked up.


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