Hooray, I guess
Some good news for you masochistic queers who are still Christians for some reason. Presbyterians have opened the door on gay clergy. And the US Episcopal church (isn't it funny that there's an American branch of the church Henry VIII created so he could get some?) has ruled out banning gay bishops.
Doesn't mean anything to me, but I know a lot of gay people are religious despite the obvious difficulties they face. Congrats, people. (But I still don't get you.)
posted by Ryan Ringer @ 6/20/2006 08:13:00 p.m.
11 comments
11 Comments:
Contrary to popular belief, not all of us "straight" Christians believe in discriminating against "alternative lifestyle folks" regardless of what our personal beliefs might be about that lifesyle.
Some of us believe its between the person and their Lord, and it should be up to God to decide if what they're doing is a sin and if its bad enough to prevent them from being saved, and not us mortals imposing our own beliefs.
(yea.. you can count me in that group as well if you hadnt guessed)
The Gay Left would be more credible in its attacks on Christians if it similarly attacked Islamofascists.
But since the Gay Left is, well, Left, it adopts a policy of silence or even complicity with Islamofascism on the basis of mutual hatred for the United States. Of course, the Feminist Left and the European Socialists do the exact same thing - they all have mendacity in common.
Fact is, as obnoxious and potentially dangerous as orthodox Southern Baptists may be, I'd still rather be a gay man in Alabama than a gay man in Pakistan.
I agree 100% with the above statement. The level of complicity between much of the "gay left" and Islamic bigots is disgusting, especially given their propensity to (rightly) attack Christian bigots. And I too would rather live in Alabama than Pakistan. One of my primary criticisms of the left is their tendency to side with violent Islamofascist bigots; I heard nary a peep from the left side of the spectrum when those two poor kids were hung in Iran last summer for the crime of being gay. I saw those pictures; they both looked so scared. It broke my heart - the only thing that was worse was the silence surrounding it, from both the left (which wouldn't dare attack Islamic bigots) and the right (which wouldn't dare defend gay rights).
It would probably help your understanding if you distinguished between fundamentalist/evangelical Christians and what, in Canada, are sometimes called the mainstream churches. There are two versions of "Christianity" - one of which sees everything in the Bible in a black-and-white, this is good-that's bad way - and the other kind, who are not "real" Christians as far as many fundamentalists are concerned.
I was brought up in the liberal version of Christianity - in a Presbyterian church - but have also dabbled in the fundamentalist kind. However, I was too steeped in the kind of tolerance I and my friends grew up with to properly swallow fundamentalism.
I agree with Scott. What concerns me is MY relationship with God, not someone else's. I don't have the time to waste on pointing out planks in other people's eyes.
I have worked with some very godly gay people and it still hurts me to know how some churches treated them!! But thank God there were places they could go that allowed them to worship in a way they felt comfortable. One couple I'm thinking of found a church home in an Anglican church, where they appreciated the liturgy. As a (hetero)Presbyterian, I find I'm more at home spiritually outside the church. It just doesn't work for me... but chacun a son gout.
Actually this post has made me see some similarities between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam. Both are (generally)intolerant and hostile of anything that veers even slightly outside the many rules and regulations they've walled in their faith with.
If you're gay, you would indeed be better off in Alabama than Pakistan, since you would at least live through the experience, but it could be mighty lonely!! (I have a lot of family and friends there....)
gayandright -- Good point. The timid reaction of some on the left (whether gay or not) is inexcusable. I think however you're over generalizing.
Red Tory:
Did you read our host's initial post? It was dripping with condescension and loathing - directed at what, 2 billion Christians worldwide? And you say that *I* am over-generalizing?
I think the Gay Left mafia is in serious danger of alienating many people who would otherwise support gay causes. The kinds of people who, while perhaps not enthusiastic about Pride festivities and gay films and whatnot, are nonetheless tolerant of gays and even supportive of gay marriage.
You don't win friends by attacking anything and anyone who you perceive, often with a hint a paranoia, to harbour a difference of a opinion on any given issue.
I fully expect there to be anti-US, anti-Conservative, and anti-Israel demonstrators at the Pride parade on Sunday.
Good on them, exercising their right to free speech. It would behoove them to take a moment to think about all the homosexuals languishing in Islamofascist countries who live in daily fear of being hung from a lamp post while a cheering crowd looks on. But campaigning against that doesn't generate as many headlines as holding up a few placards denouncing "Yankee Imperialists".
the Gay Left mafia
You've damn near lost all credibility when you start saying things like that; now all I can think of is Robin Williams. "There's a gay mafia, did you know? The Mauve Hand."
Did you read our host's initial post? It was dripping with condescension and loathing - directed at what, 2 billion Christians worldwide?
To be fair, it was tongue-in-cheek; hardly "dripping with condescension". I would say that pretty much every post you make it my comments section is "dripping with condescension" for pretty much everybody who doesn't share your views, particularly gay people who don't share your views, calling them ridiculous things like the "gay mafia".
Oh whatever. "tongue in cheek"...if a Christian, or anyone else, wrote a blog entry that dismissively said to gay people "*sniff* I just don't get you people", you'd be going ballistic.
You'd be making 5 or 6 blog entries to counter it, probably with a few requisite jabs at Conservatives even if the individual had nothing to do with the party. It's a shame, because people like you don't even realize that your arrogant behaviour is going to turn more people against gay marriage than in favour of it.
You know what, gayandright?
Get over yourself. So you're gay! And you're conservative! Yeah, that makes you unique, just like the rest of us. And you think the gay community does you wrong by casting you off so discourteously and being near-monolithically anti-conservative. Well no shit! Self-respecting people don't date abusers, and self-respecting gays don't vote Conservative. Is that really a surprise worthy of the big, blue stick you seem to have permanently lodged up your ass?
Oh whatever. "tongue in cheek"...if a Christian, or anyone else, wrote a blog entry that dismissively said to gay people "*sniff* I just don't get you people", you'd be going ballistic.
You go on to assume you know not only my particular feelings, but also how I would act in any given situation. First of all, it was tongue in cheek, and second, you seem to have missed this, were directed at gay Christians, not Christians as a whole. (Though I don't get them either, that's for a different reason.)
It's also funny that someone who claims to be gay would compare sexual orientaiton to religion, as if they're the same thing. If you ARE gay, you ought to know better that they're not.
You'd be making 5 or 6 blog entries to counter it, probably with a few requisite jabs at Conservatives even if the individual had nothing to do with the party.
It's funny that someone named "gayandright" would be levelling the tired old "one-issue" charge yet again, considering he struts around with his sexual orientation emblazened in his very name. Yeah, we get it, you're gay, and you're... well, not right, but conservative. Come up with a new schtick. After all, I notice the only comments you make where you harass me on a personal level like this are in response to posts I make about homosexuality. Sounds like you get as inflamed on the issue as I do. I wonder why that could be...?
It's a shame, because people like you don't even realize that your arrogant behaviour is going to turn more people against gay marriage than in favour of it.
Hah! A CONSERVATIVE of all people has got a lot of nerve to lecture about "turning more people against gay marriage!"
Oh now don't get snippy, dear.
Your problem is that you think anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of kook. So now there's something inherently fucked up with gay people who follow the Christian faith, too? Is there anybody outside your own echo-chamber coterie that you don't believe is somehow lacking in chromosomes?
I find the Gay Left mafia (sorry, but the term is apt) to be utterly obnoxious, but I don't resent them for voicing their opinions. I can recognize, however, that their loud-mouthed arrogant tactics will turn many people off, including those who would otherwise be disposed to siding with gay causes.
And, umm, it is possible to draw comparisons between two things and not be claiming that "they're the same thing" - but I'm far too tired to teach a reading comprehension course at the moment.
Your problem is that you think anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of kook.
A characteristic you yourself have shown quite regularly. "Gay left mafia?" Come on...
So now there's something inherently fucked up with gay people who follow the Christian faith, too?
I never said that. I said I don't get them. YOU may possess a level of arrogance such that not understanding somebody must mean there's something inherently wrong with them, but I am happy to say that I do not. I don't understand why anyone would be a Christian, let alone why any gay person would be, but that doens't mean I think there is anything inherently wrong with them. Is this a concept you can grasp in your one-dimensional mind?
Is there anybody outside your own echo-chamber coterie that you don't believe is somehow lacking in chromosomes?
More than I could possibly count. I'm friends with some of them.
I find the Gay Left mafia (sorry, but the term is apt) to be utterly obnoxious, but I don't resent them for voicing their opinions.
Clearly you do.
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